HR Training Zones / Base Training.

Confused...

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10/02/2004 at 17:35
bit of heart rate drift

ie last night i ran 20.3 flat miles at 8:30 pace (pacing using timex GPS; 2 9.6 mile loops plus start and end bits)

HR drifted from around 146 at the start, to 138 - 144 for miles 2-14, then it increased at about 2 beats per mile fairly linearly to finish on 157

food was a boots carbo bar over the first 5 miles, and three powergels, so say 600 Kcals
cougie    pirate
10/02/2004 at 17:35
Tee hee. I did have my HRM on the other day. But forgot to look.
10/02/2004 at 17:36
and to drink, a litre and a bit of flat pepsi max (double nathan belt)..... mmmmm caffeine
10/02/2004 at 17:38
i dont usually bother with the GPS, but run at constant heart rate

....last night was a bit of a 'how is my 3:30 flm looking?' trial

....not too bad to say i haven't done any speed work
10/02/2004 at 17:41
think i need to eat more though, i'll go get a pie or something
cougie    pirate
10/02/2004 at 18:26
Blimey. 20 miles in a night ?

Eek !
10/02/2004 at 18:41
55-65%MRH is best for losing weight. Above this value and it is easier for the body to utlise the energy from the carbohydrate zone. This point is also usually associated with noticable change of breathing. As for max heart rate (MRH) you never achieve this (to the max, as the next stage is probable death), however if you do this on a bike after 20 min warm up, whatever your max heart rate achieved, add on 10 beats for your assumed mrh. If you do this running, add on 5 beats. The difference between the two is because you can't use as many muscles on a bike. Your max heart rate is pre-coded in your body, it will not change, however your ability to get near to it will. So, once you have determined whatr you mrh is, see if it changes with time, and fine tune your zones( as indicated in previous replies). Doing it this way with measured MRH means you will be less likely to damage yourself. Hope this helps
11/02/2004 at 10:49
Andy, that just seems a normal rise of HR due to tiredness and possibly heat?!

I go out and do a 15m run with no food at all and get a similar reading and i feel this happens when i start to get fairly hot and a tad tired
11/02/2004 at 10:57
heat? it was f****** freezing on monday night (this run finished just before midnight!)

i think it was classic bonking (or 'the wall' for our running friends) - aren't the tiredness and overheating symptoms rather than the cause?

i was mighty hungry, too, and cooked some fish when i got in, much to the annoyance of 'er indoors when the smoke alarm woke 'er up
11/02/2004 at 11:05
12 o'clock, are you mad?

You may feel cold though your working muscles are'nt!

Its sounds to me like you need to teach your body to burn fat! You ate all that and you still got the 'knock'?!

Drink some coffee or tea and then go out for a run (not quite that far to begin with)without food, maybe use a gel very late in the run. This may then teach your body not to rely on food to much?!!!
11/02/2004 at 11:06
The tea or coffee breaks down fat cells in case you did'nt know?!!
Bouncing Barlist    pirate
11/02/2004 at 11:19
Ok to check that I understand this right (Polar zones used)

Assuming my Maximum Heart Rate (MHR) is 220 & my average resting HR is 48 (ARHR), the following equation and training zones should apply to me:


MHR (220) – ARHR (48) = 172, percentages of 172 for HR HR thresholds for the training zones in brackets


50-60% (86 – 103 BPM) Recovery sessions

60-70% (103 – 120 BPM) Fat burning

70 -80% (120 – 137 BPM) Steady state training

80 - 90% (137 – 154 BPM) This intensity can be held for about one hour in competition (?)

>90% Short distance races (>154 BPM) - sprints etc


Questions

1) Is my application of the formula correct?

2) For base training do I use the 60-70% zone Fat burning?

3) These thresholds seem very low which is why I was originally confused and doubted my application of the formulae, for example last night on a very easy 7 mile run (9min miles+), I struggled to keep my HR below 140 and at times it went above 150 (hills) – this was very easy running, less than marathon pace. I also noticed that when walking the last mile (as I had a blister) my HR averaged about 110. There is virtually no way I can run and keep my HR below the 120 Fat Burning (base training threshold).


Or – should I be re-adding my 48 BPM Resting HR to the percentages to give the figures below, if I do they then seem a bit high.


50-60% (134 – 151 BPM) Recovery sessions

60-70% (151 – 168 BPM) Fat burning

70 -80% (168 – 185 BPM) Steady state training

80 - 90% (185 – 202 BPM) This intensity can be held for about one hour in competition (?)

>90% Short distance races (>202 BPM) - sprints etc


Im sorry if I seem a bit thick but im still confused (hence starting this thread), could someone be so king as to work out what my zones could be (cant believe ive a grade A in Maths – I must be getting old).
11/02/2004 at 11:19
Trying the no gel route at the moment (although I'm no where near serious training that you guys do) and finding it OK although recovery is hard. Did 17/18 miles on Sunday (I'd love a GPS) with no food and stupidly no fluids...but my hands were sooooo cold and felt fine. But my run home last night was hard as hell...had to jump in a cold bath to try and stop my legs from complaining. Must get the batteries replaced on HRM.
11/02/2004 at 11:27
that isn't much to eat!

dunno if it was 'the knock' - the symtoms were described in detail (ie mild cardiac drift, constant speed) - it wasn't particularly unpleasant, so maybe it wasn't 'the knock' at all. i've been doing a couple of 20 milers and a longer run, usually about 25, all winter, with never any worse symptoms than that (it getting a bit harder at the end, as evidenced by a slight drop in speed at constant HR, or a slight increase in HR at constant speed)

i've done 20 milers on just flat pepsi max, with very similar results... just i started eating something after someone told me i could have a heart attack if i didn't!

yes re tea coffee - i usually use flat pepsi max instead of water, and l-carnitine
11/02/2004 at 11:34
count, the reason for the gels are

1) somebody told me i risk heart attack by not eating on 20 mile runs... which might be ********, but i dont want to risk it

2) fat burning can only provide a finite amount of energy, and even in the best trained athletes its capped at around 70% - without carbs, the rest comes from lean tissue by glycolysis, which aint good

l-glutamine supplementation (especially immediately post run) is supposed to help counter lean tissue loss
cougie    pirate
11/02/2004 at 11:44
Andy - I've never heard No.1 !

I think 17/18 miles is prob near the limit without extra energy taken in. They talk about the wall being at about 20 miles don't they, so you need the gels before you get to that point.
11/02/2004 at 11:49
a couple of people on these forums said it - maybe rubbish, but why risk it

one was Glen - and he has a bears so he must be taken seriously

anyway - i see no issue with eating 600 calories due to '2' anyway... assuming one burns 100 calories a mile (i'm heavier than average so its slightly more i'd guess) then 20 miles gives you 2000 calories - plenty of room to burn fat, especially if its three times a week, and that's before the cycling!

the only downside is it costs a fortune in batteries training on unlit country lanes in the dark (head torch/mp3 etc)
11/02/2004 at 11:50
he has a BEARD

although he might have bears as well, not for me to speculate
11/02/2004 at 12:03
I do my 4hr+ bike ride using just fluid i.e 1 bottle of water and 1 of powerbar energy drink (not a plug for them)much!
I then eat a carbo bar and go off on my 2hr run and maybe take a couple of gels toward the end of the run.

This seems to work fairly well for me though i have used this through-out the winter so my body wont crave to much food

Carl, 220 minus your age is not accurate enough to get your HR zones
11/02/2004 at 12:07
i eat much less on the bike, which is illogical come to think of it given reasons 1) and 2)
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