HRM training - Don Fink

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17/10/2012 at 00:15

are your zones right? If you read Friel's book he bases them on LTHR - which makes more sense IMHO for the sort of stuff we are trying to do.

Friel refers to extensive and intensive Zone 2 sessions. You are doing the former. The latter will have about 1/3 of the entire session in zone you are probably doing you are probably doing right!

do a flat out 5k and press the lap button half way around. The avHR for the second half is probably somewhere near your LTHR.



Better 5k, Duathlon and Triathlon


Goals: 82% Age Graded 5k and an open water Triathlon.

The Evil Pixie    pirate
17/10/2012 at 06:20

my Z2 would have me walking more than running  according to my HR but I can also run comfortably and talk whilst apparently in upper Z3 hitting Z4

which means I am either a freak (more than possible) or my MHR is even more stupidly high than I thought

17/10/2012 at 09:43

Have you ever used MAF principles for cycle training?

I'm already a believer in it for run training but I never considered it for cycling, I'm actually embarked on a winter of FTP raising workouts which are not in the least Z2 But your post got me considering the best way to train the bike hence the question.
17/10/2012 at 20:22

@theevilpixie...your zones are wrong then !! if you are young your HRmax could easily be 220.

mine was over 200 in my 30s

this is nothing to shout about as HRmax is NOT a measure of fitness...for that look at HRmin / HRrest

for FTP based training the most effective 1 hour session i think is at 85% of FTP for 2x20 mins HOWEVER you need to do that on an existing endurance base. Obviously just doing zone 2 work won't help shorter faster distances

Edited: 17/10/2012 at 20:27
17/10/2012 at 20:40
Good discussion here. Thanks to everyone for contributing thoughts. Never heard of Maffetone before reading this and am now going to readjust my HR training. Previously I thought my zone 2 was upto about 153 (I'm 40 yrs old) and was running upto that threshold. Readin maffetone it seems that I should be running at 140! Going to try it on my next run on Friday - suspect I'll be doing a lot of walking!
17/10/2012 at 22:21
I started IM training using gordo / friel principles to work out my zones, and a oly distance tri bike section with a avg hr of 160. thia gave me a bottom z2 of 129.

So i started riding at that.... Easy for an hour, pretty tough after 4.

I am now riding at 135-145.
However i have bwen riding for 20 years and i find my legs explode before my heart......

Gordo byrn (search for gordo tips) has lots of ramblings on this - ill find a link
17/10/2012 at 22:25

4 pillars and the stuff on coaching notes on how to train /coach athletes is interesting
All this is now in enduramce corner as well but i like the early stuff he wrote as well
TheEngineer    pirate
17/10/2012 at 22:37
O.rangeCannon - Extravalanza-ing wrote (see)

I owe you an e-mail. Work has been hectic last month or so, will drop you a line this week.

The Evil Pixie    pirate
18/10/2012 at 06:43

5K I turn 40 next year so not that young but I don't do pain so max HR tests are tricky as I give up before it gets hard!! I'm less trained these last 18mths due to a career change but recently hit 187 on the bike - going to go out this weekend to beast some hills and see what happens

18/10/2012 at 10:11

....what have I started!?

Some cracking thoughts in here. Thanks to all of you. I'm going to review the MAF side of things as well. I also need to sort out my goals - IM is one, going sub 3 on a marathon is another and I just don't think the two will mix well in any one year.

Like others have said, Max HR is a bit of a silly boast - mine has been 210, but I also hit problems after beasting a 10k a few years back and was at 244bpm for long enough that I was rigged up to a cardiogram (?) and it veryfied the 244bpm - a complete freak incident, but it would make my z2 interesting if I went of that!

I'm working off a recently tested 190 under Fink, but suspect I may have to go lower under MAF...that's walking pace which is soul destroying!

18/10/2012 at 11:08

OK... call me thick if you like... 

Not specifically Don Fink but......  I can see an argument for running very slowly, staying out of the aerobic zone, for long periods.  It means you can run further on your long runs and builds up your base endurance.

But if, on a Saturday morning, I have only 2 hours availabIe...  or perhaps have a plan to run a fixed 20 miles then, if I'm fit enough, is not better to run this in the aerobic zone...  say 75% WHR, rather than 20 miles at 65%?  Surely this works on both endurance and cardiovascular efficiency.

If I've got it wrong - just tell me without long explanations... I'll just go back and do some more reading.

19/10/2012 at 22:32
Errrr z2 is your aerobic zone.....
Z3 is tempo. you can hold this for an hour but its a real effort
Z4 is hard theshold efforts(aka vo2 max stuff) its hurting....
Z5 is omfg interval efforts.
And z1 is recovery.....

For me (from memory)
Z1 - 135
Z2 136 - 145 aka Maf/ z2 IM training/ long runs....
Z3 145 - 155
Z4 155 - 165
Z5 166-180
19/10/2012 at 22:43
Also found this blig entry i did a while ago.... 2009

Been reading Gordos thoughts on aerobic threshold training zones - ie heart rates I should be running / biking at.
I find I need some guidance on this else I just go for it and fry myself in 40 mins. This is cool for bike commutes but not very good for a 4 hr ride.......??

Aet - top of zone 1 - 135-139 for running, 127-129 for biking??
Easy Pace ??? defined as less than AeT - less than 139/129.??
There are ???degrees of easy???. Well under AeT is recovery pace and also used for early season base building. I???ve found that slightly under AeT is a good pace for my novice and weaker athletes to build endurance. It???s also a suitable intensity for my stronger athletes to do long over-distance workouts.??

Steady Pace ??? defined as AeT to AeT+10 bpm - 135 - 145....(139-149). (129- 139 for biking (-144 feels ok though.....)??
My prime endurance objective is to maximize tolerance of (and pace for) steady state training. With my weaker athletes, I use upper steady (AeT+5 bpm to AeT+10 bpm) for their sport specific strength work. With my stronger athletes, we use upper steady for intensive aerobic training (done in low steady for my novices and weaker athletes).??
Endurance Target HRs - 145-149.... for running, 137-142 approx for biking.....??

Mod-Hard Pace ??? known by many as Tempo Pace (Friel Zn 3). Defined as AeT+10bpm to AeT+20 bpm.
This zone is typically marked by labored, rhythmic breathing and a novice can mistake this sensation for the AeT subjective marker. With my weaker and novice athletes, I use very little of this zone. While there are physiological benefits to this intensity zone, I???ve found that the time lost due to recovery and illness ends up making its use counterproductive. My stronger athletes use this zone for sport specific strength work and muscular endurance training.
19/10/2012 at 22:44
Errrr z2 is your aerobic zone.....
Z3 is tempo. you can hold this for an hour but its a real effort
Z4 is hard theshold efforts(aka vo2 max stuff) its hurting....
Z5 is omfg interval efforts.
And z1 is recovery.....

For me (from memory)
Z1 - 135
Z2 136 - 145 aka Maf/ z2 IM training/ long runs....
Z3 145 - 155
Z4 155 - 165
Z5 166-180
Rafiki    pirate
20/10/2012 at 15:50

Run Wales - what you say would seem to make sense, but you have to consider what your goal is - if you are looking to complete a marathon, then yes you will be fine with that approach. But if you're looking at IM it is important to work within Z2 . One of the key factors is the energy source your muscles will be using. If you keep in the aerobic zone, you use both glyogen and fat as energy - in varying amount. By training in this zone, you 'teach' your body to utilise more fat than it would normally - which is essential for IM (not so much for marathons as you're only working for 3 hours or so) as you will run out of glycogen rapidly.

The Evil Pixie    pirate
21/10/2012 at 15:33

new max HR on bike today 191

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