Pre-requisite for IM - discuss

>> then to celebrate what is basically pretty poor performance but dress it up as an 'admirable finish'.

A poor performance by whose standards? By his standards virtually the entire human race is unable to achieve a good performance so should they not try at all?

Surely it is the standards of each individual competator that matter here.

 "Surely it is the standards of each individual competator that matter here."

Exactly, and if you read all the posts (including mine) everyone is agreeing on that point.  I would like to understant EXACTLY what standards Leder has, what the context of his book is and what he means by 'FINISH'. Because, its blindingly obvious that he doesn't just mean get across the finish line. He just may (?) have a serious point that could be worth considering.

However, if the mere mention of a debate (caveated throughout by the point that everyone will have their own goals and challenges and that these should all be celebrated) touches so many raw nerves, the  perhaps we should leave it there.

I was only bored, and knew what the reaction would be.

BTW  - I genuinely respect anyone who takes on the IM challenge whatever their time and ability. In the same way, I respect the person who takes on a super sprint. Every one is in the small minority of folk who are prepared to get off their backsides and challenge themselves. And for that, I salute them!

It's something we've possibly all pondered at one point or another. I know I'm in no danger of doing a 30 min 10k, or a 2'30 marathon any time soon. But that doesn't mean I should stop running. I challenge myself, I want to get this time for a 10k, or I want to run this far, or have the experience of completing this event... I hope to do an IM one day, but not yet. For me, my mara time is within those limits, but I'm not a strong cyclist, and although I like swimming I don't have much endurance and I'm not very fast, so I imagine overall I'd not be anywhere near the front of an IM.

To me one of the exciting things with running (and this may be true in the tri world, esp at IM distance) is that I can enter a race alongside the world's greats. If you do one of the bigger marathons, Paula, or Haile, or whoever might be there at the front... If someone has done a 5 hr marathon, or a 16hr IM, or even a 1'15 10k, they have the achievement of having *done* it all, which is surely better than not doing it. Whether they should make themselves try to get faster is up to them. For some the challenge is to push a 10k time under an hour, or under 45 mins, for some it's to run further than they have before. Personally, although I enjoy a bit of speed work, I don't really like short races enough to focus on, say, getting a great 5k time before running further. If it was my job, then perhaps I would, but if it's for fun then your goals and your achievements are what you decide them to be.

I suppose it's down to how you take the original statement. If he means compete rather than complete, then fine. But if he's just mistaken with figures then that's less heinous than saying slower peeps shouldn't enter at all... But I think we're all sort of saying the same thing, in that what it's 'worth' you doing depends on what you want, so if you only want to enter if you can compete at that distance then fine, but if your goal is to enjoy/complete then fine. I hope the competers don't preclude the completers!

it's no crime that he's mistaken with his figures.  actually (empirically) the slower your "straight" marathon time, the less the relative difference in your ironman marathon time, so if he associates only with professional trigeeks and fast age groupers then it's not difficult to see where the wrong thinking comes from

what's more interesting is how people react so preciously to it.  if somebody were to say "in my view slow people shouldn't be allowed to enter races as they are crap" - so what?  why would there be such an outcry?  (as there has been on this thread, and is often seen on RW).  what difference does it make?  (it's not like race organisers will ever listen).  if you think somebody is talking out of their arse by thinking you are crap and that you shouldn't be allowed to enter races (which I agree they would be), but the race organisers disagree, why would you give two hoots about their ridiculous opinion?  Surely, life's too short.  and arguing on a web forum makes no difference anyway.  look at any "argument" on any RW thread.  nobody EVER changes or modifies their views.  they just repeat themselves ad nauseum.  what a bizarre medium the interweb has become!

You're talking out your arse again Monkey man.

Reaction is fun. Sinning with a safety net.

You can be one of the most precious, and contentious, mofo's on here. You revel in it somedays.

Stop wrecking all of that with a serious sounding post. I'm going to report this thread as I think someone has knicked your password and is logging in as you.............

To say that nobody ever changes or modifies their views is generalising. 

I see lots of threads where issues are explored making people consider several points of view. Some won't change their stance, some won't argue their opinion . I know I've changed my view on several things basically because I was uninformed previously. 

I can see where TH2 is going with his argument. The argument is only flawed to me because of the original statement it is based upon. I understood that it was talking about finishing............ not finishing well.  IF he had said finishing well then TH's point is more relevant. I still think that for myself an endurance event would still be an achievement but a really fast short event would be as much of an achievement but with less recognition.

If its written in the book as finish then why are we guessing that they meant something else.............surely if they have written the book they have put a lot of thought into it...........the word finish is very straightfordward.................so when debating this we should respect his intelligence and accept that he believes that its not possible to finish in under 16 hours unless you have a fast marathon time..............

therefore his book is only suitable for elite sportpeople who have the same narrow minded view of Ironman as they have..................They want people to believe it to keep the everyday normal people out of their sport

TH2 you 'have' missed the point there 'has' been debate, it may have seemed one sided to you but that has nothing to do with it. As happens with lots of threads there is genuine debate underlying the banter and argument, not everyone can argue a point eloquently and use all the big fancy words

Lame attempt at trying to psych people with the 'confidence in there motives' comment, maybe you are just not happy with your lot and want to make us 'completers' feel as bad, I don't know, I don't know you so I would not make that judgement.

I suggest next time you are bored you go over to Tri talk and argue with the real athletes instead of insulting us by claiming you want a real debate then saying it was a bit of fun.

Good luck with the Lakeland 100 by the way  (not intended as a sarcastic comment)

Football fan!!!

That explains it all!!

what Lothar actually wrote

"Wer fuer einen Marathon heute funf bis sechs Stunden braucht, wird beim Ironman nach Schwimmen und Radfahren Schwierigkeiten haben, den Marathon zu ueberstehen"

He who today needs 5 to 6 hours to finish a marathon, will have difficulty after the swimming and cycling in an Ironman to be able to complete the marathon.

He also said when talking about cycling:

"Einige Jahre regelmaessiges Radtraining ist Voraussetzung, um nach gut einem Jahr Triathlon-Training ein Ironman erfolgreich zu finishen. Du sollst mindestens ein bis zwei Mitteldistanz-Rennen bestritten haben. Ohne Wettkampferfahrung ist ein Ironman kaum zu bewaeltigen"

Several years of bike training is required, to be able to successfully finish an Ironman after a year's triathlon training. You should have raced at least one or two half-IM distances. An Ironman is hardly do-able without experience of competition".