Reader to Reader: Train less, run faster?

Hello,

I ran 3 hrs 8 mins at this year’s FLM, having averaged 60 miles per week (6 runs/wk)over a 5 month training period (peak mileage 72 miles). I’d like to experiment with different training regimes and am particularly keen to hear from anyone who has run close to or under 3 hours for the marathon on 3 runs a week.

I’m aware of the Furman schedules and wonder what level of success people have had with this type of “minimalist” approach to training. I’m particularly interested in hearing:
a. what type of runs were done and at what pace
b. the duration of the training
c. any cross training sessions that were included
d. most importantly did you enjoy the training or was the intensity of each session so high that you dreaded each run

Thanks

ITFAC

Posted: 30/05/2007 at 10:02

i have a gym buddy whose not a forumite but tells me he did his best marathon in 2 hours 38 on a three day a week running programme. quality over quantity apparently. he also did two/three days cross training in the form of cycling/spinning. i'll get him to give me more details if you're interested.
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 15:25

Hi b-oing

Any information you can get would be much appreciated

Thanks

ITFAC
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 15:48

All my jealous running friends know me as an absolute minimalist trainer, but not a 3-hour marathoner, unfortunately, but that's just cos I'm not fast enuf...yet!

I ran lifetime pbs last year at marathon, and half, and was only a minutes outside my 10k pb of 10 year standing.I'm 51.

I guess the majority of it came from a job change that had me lumping heavy cartons, upto 53Kg (ikea boxes) into and out of a van, and up sometimes 4 flights of stairs, and I'm only 5'10" and 73Kg.. then building the stuff quickly, which got the heart rate going. I worked long hours, sometimes 12 a day, and ate little, so I lost about 3kg. My legs and upper body became solid muscle, and I usually managed the time to run once or maybe twice a week.

At MOST it was 3 times..

I improved a sickening marathon time at Rotterdam in March of 4h01m, down to 3h43m in the October at Amsterdam.
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 16:03

Hey Ged56

That's impressive going.

Sounds like you're job is giving you a lot of opportunity to cross-train!

ITFAC
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 16:12

On a slower scale than the times quoted, but I did a 22 min pb at the Lochaber Marathon finishing in 4:28. When I looked back at my training log I was suprised to see that my January to March total mileages were 78, 76 and 77 miles (less than 18 mpw!!!)on no more than 3 runs a week and maybe a 3 hour bike sess every fortnight or so.
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 16:21

Hi fat face

Well done on your massive PB. How did the mileage for Lochaber compare to your mileage for your previous marathon(s).

ITFAC

Posted: 30/05/2007 at 16:27

Probably less mileage but I started to do longer runs earlier on in the schedule.
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 16:32

So far some useful information.

I'm still waiting to hear from people who have run the marathon in under 3 hours (or close to 3 hours) on just 3 runs a week. Anyone out there who's done this, or is it pie in the sky?

ITFAC
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 16:48

I did 3:10 on three to four quality sessions per week, plus the odd recovery run...... so, not quite the three hours on three sessions BUT my maximum mileage for this was 55, and I was probably averaging 40 miles per week - so considerably less mileage than you for approximately the same result.

But, that being said, my own tactic for cracking three hours is to up the mileage while trying to maintain the quality, so we're heading in diferent directions!

I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with this approach though. In theory the increased rest you'll get means you should be more able to work hard/effectively in your three sessions, so should get more out of it, but I suspect there will be a lot of other factors that will also come into play.

Good Luck!
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 17:03

Hi (not so) Slowboy

That's useful, thanks.

What were your "quality" sessions and did you suffer any burnout/over-training from running at a high intensity for most of your runs?

I guess I'm trying to find out for how long (i.e how many weeks) it's possible to stick to a schedule where every run is "fast"/intensive before your body screams out ENOUGH!


ITFAC
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 17:20

I've now moved away, and changed my job, and the half marathon I ran, to the day a year later, was 3 mins slower, at 1.43, from the sub 1.40 last year, on virtually 'b*gg*r all' mileage.. although I ran a hilly 16 miler 3 weeks before the race. My MAXimum miles are 30pw, in peak training, usually about 10-15mpw, with maybe a 10 mile bike ride, once a fortnight. All runs, long or short, are run at the hardest pace I can manage on the day.

My recommendations are to try a comfortable 30 miler, 3 weeks before the race, and taper Sharply, max 15mpw after that, with at least an hour stretch session per week, and an hour stretch the night before the race.

I usually recover within an hour after the race..my friends say I obviously don't run hard enuf!!
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 17:25

the key to my training is the recovery times between each..loads of it...
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 17:27

Interesting thread.

I guess that with only 3 sessions a week you'd be runing every other day, looking at a long slow run with a couple of tempo runs (of an hour each).

Your recovery/easy days would be the no-running days.

However, the above is only an educated guess.

Like yourself, I'd like to hear from someone who has done it!
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 19:12

I train with someone who has averaged well under 3 times per week in the last couple of years, though due to injury rather than choice. Earlier this year he managed a 31:50 10km, but I'd imagine he currently lacks the endurance to convert it to a super-quick marathon. At his best, around 10 years ago he did manage 62mins for a HM and a 2:14 whilst despite less than 100km per week.

I guess he chose his parents wisely; I needed to step up to 5 - 6 times per day to break 3 hrs, then daily training to break 2:45, although perhaps I'd have got there anyway on 3 times per weke - just at a slower rate of improvement?
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 20:22

SG,

Your suggestion of two 1-hour tempo sessions and a long run sounds reasonable. But as you say, it's guess work.

Would it be better to do a hill session or an interval session instead of one of the tempo sessions??? I wish I knew. And how long could someone maintain that type of training before the high level of intensity got to them??? (You won't have time to stop and smell the roses!!) And how much of a base would you need before you embarked on this type high intensity training?


JEJ

Thanks for the information.

31:50 for a 10K off 3 runs a week is mighty impressive!!!! As you say, your training partner must have excellent innate running ability.

The question, which is still unanswered, is - has someone converted this limited amount of running into a sub 3 hour (or close to that mark) marathon? And if so, what type of runs have they done?

Is there anyone out there who has done this? I'd love to hear from you.

ITFAC
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 21:04

My long run has always been Friday night, saturday, or sunday, with at least 2 days rest following, then the third session could be the day after, as long as the weather was suitable (I'm a fine weather runner) or the day after,, either speed session/reps or hardpace 6/8/10 miler.
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 21:07

A long time ago, I ran a 2:50 marathon off 3/4 runs a week (I guess I was probably averaging 25 miles a week), and then one 20 mile run the week before.

But I was never very scientific about my running. I just ran hard a couple of times a week. And made sure that I was carrying as little weight as possible (very important, I tend to think - though obviously there is a point at which one begins to lose muscle).

I think I managed the marathon because I'd got relatively quick at 10km on this regime (just sub-34). So I probably wasn't building up much lactic acid when running at marathon pace, so was able to keep going.

But the last three miles were hell.

Ironically, the only other time I ran a marathon, I trained "properly", and then crashed and burned during the race (though there was an injury issue).
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 22:57

Hi There,

I did 2:59 last Autumn and again at FLM this year on 4 sessions a week - so not quite down to 3.

Basically, never went over 45 miles in a week and did 2 quality sessions, a long session and a tempo session. Did do one or two alternatives as well though - ie a swim and or a gym session for core strength - but that could be done at home with minimal equipment. (the core strength, not the swim!)
Posted: 30/05/2007 at 23:06

ITFAC,

Well, one long slow run and one tempo run a week would be obvious. For a marathon the tempo run has much more benefit than an interval session (running at or near Lactic Threshold to improve your LT pace will have more benefit than running intervals and raising your VO2 max).
A hill session would definitely add stamina but more than a tempo run? I suppose it would depend upon your pace and the actual quality of the hills. Alternating between hills and a tempo run would give the best of both worlds.

Looks like in answer to your question - a sub 3 (or near to sub 3) must be very difficult (if not impossible) off only 3 training (running) sessions a week.
Posted: 31/05/2007 at 07:50

Themoabird, thanks for the information. Sub 34 min 10K on 3/4 runs a week suggests you have a lot of natrual ability!! (sadly not the case for me)

Dad of two -- I'm really impressed that you broke 3 hours on 4 runs/week. When you say "2 quality sessions" do you mean interval sessions, and if so short or long intervals, and for how many weeks did you follow this schedule?


As Sean G says, it looks like sub 3 hours (or close to it) on just 3 runs a week is a stretch, unless you are a naturally gifted runner. Hmmm, looks like a minimum of 4 sessions is required, unless anyone else out there has evidence to the contrary.

ITFAC
Posted: 31/05/2007 at 09:08

Interesting thread. I've tried the 3/4 runs a week and it certainly trains you for a marathon. Whether its good enough for a fast one though I'm not sure.

My problem with the schedules were the cross-training days, I found it difficult to complete them at the recommended intensity and would instead find myself slipping out for a run instead. If people could advise some good challenging cross-training days, or if the programme were more specific about what they should involve I would certainly try it again.


Posted: 31/05/2007 at 09:18

Having seen this thread I thought I'd actually go back to my training diary and see what I really did. The counting up is now done.

For the 20 weeks before my first marathon, Amsterdam 2006, I averaged 3.45 runs per week and a total weekly mileage of 25.3m. I did the marathon in 2.57.

A typical running week for me at that time involved 1 track session (intervals of anything from 400s to 1,600s), 1 hilly run or hill reps and 1 long run. Often, a race would take the place of the long run. A 4th run would normally have been a steady 6/7m club run (sometimes more like a fartlek) or sometimes a steady / hard run off the bike (maybe 4m).

In addition to my running during those 20 weeks pre-marathon I typically swam 1 or 2 times per week and cycled 1 or 2 times per week. The swims were almost always one hour with my tri club doing intervals. The bike sessions were sporadic (some long rides, some TT efforts over 10/25m, some steady shorter stuff, some balls to the wall turbo intervals).

I suffered in the marathon and found the last quarter very tough. I did not have enough decent long runs in the bank and I'm pretty sure my relatively low mileage was not doing me any favours either. This year I have Dublin to look forward to and I intend to stick a lot more mileage in for it. Whilst a sub-3 is possible off 3 runs per week (or fractionally over in my case at 3.45 runs) it is never going to keep the runner happy. I know that my potential is a lot faster than 2.57. With 3 or 4 runs per week it's barely scratching the surface!
Posted: 01/06/2007 at 10:13

MTriton - interesting you mention about keeping the runner happy. That's what caused me the most trouble with the training programme...not the sessions itself, but the relative 'lack' of running. With all due respect, personally, I'm not that keen on cycling and to be honest cannot swim more than a length or two without resembling a drowned rat, so the prospect of cross training sessions never appealed - whereas a gentle plod did (but that of course defeats the purpose of only running three times a week)

On the positive side, the limited runs did fit in well with other commitments (uni studies etc) and I didn't find the repeative grind of 5 or 6 training sessions as with other previous training programmes I have considered. If I could only crack the cross training problem then I would be fine!
Posted: 01/06/2007 at 10:31

MTriton

Sub 3 hours on an average of 25.3 miles running per week is fantastic. There were a
lot of quality miles in there and 2-4 quality swimming and biking sessions per week, which helped. As you say, you'll go a lot faster than 2.57 with some additional running -- but be careful that you don't pick up injuries. Out of interest how do you rate Amsterdam as a marathon?


Your comment about the lack of running is one of my concerns, and like SAmTheMan I find cross-training tough. I have an elliptical trainer which I could use, but after 30 minutes I'm struggling to carry on because of the boredom. But I think it might be worth me persevering with it.

I'm thinking that for my next marathon it might be worth going with a weekly schedule of 4 runs (long run of 15-20 miles, tempo session, hill or interval session and an easy/recovery run; max total mileage of 40) together with 1 cross-training session on the elliptical trainer of one hour @ HR of 140-150 i.e. HR equivalent to a steady run.

ITFAC
Posted: 01/06/2007 at 12:01

ITFAC

I used a stationery bike mostly for my cross-training sessions and found the boredom factor a real grind. I like your plan for the next marathon, it sounds like a good balance of running without too much mileage and the benefits of the rest and cross-training days. Does anyone else though have the problem of getting 'itchy' feet on rest days though?

STM
Posted: 02/06/2007 at 09:23

Amsterdam is a pretty nice marathon. Reasonable buzz at the start, excellent organisation and fairly attactive flat route. And you get to party in Amsterdam afterwards!! Downsides are (i) the boring bit running through the long straight roads in the industrial portion (where there is little protection from wind) and (ii) fairly small crowd support.

Overall I'd say it's a good race and definately one worth doing. There is plenty of pb potential in the race.
Posted: 02/06/2007 at 10:28

Can also be a bit chilly, well it was rather windy the year I did it...which might mitigate against some of its pb potential. don't know if they still insist on you running through the stadium at 7k like they did the year i ran it...but it was a bit demoralising to pass the finish line and know you still had about another 35k to go
Posted: 02/06/2007 at 11:03

I am interested to see how peopl eget on with three runs - I need to maximise my training quality
Posted: 02/06/2007 at 13:53

Hi guys

I've pinched this question for this week's Reader to Reader, so look forward to hearing more about your marathon training strategies...


Posted: 04/06/2007 at 14:12

Catherine RW -- enjoy!

ITFAC
Posted: 04/06/2007 at 14:47

SAmTheMan, MTriton

Thanks for the info about Amsterdam. I'm thinking about an Autumn marathon so Amsterdam is a possibility.

I've done a bit more thinking over the weekend and have decided that one of the problems with a high intensity training programme is that the mind can start to rebel against sessions that it remembers as painful or tough. So I'm going to do a 2-week cycle of training as follows:

week 1:
Long run (14-16 miles)

Long Tempo run (work up to 40-50 mins @ about 85% max HR; with warm up & cool down, total mileage = 12 miles)

Hilly fartlek run (10-12 miles total)

Elliptical trainer 1 hour (HR @ 70-75% max)

week 2
Long run (16-20 miles)

Fast Intervals (start with mile reps and slowly progress to shorter reps at a faster pace with shorter recoveries; total mileage = 8)

Tempo intervals (2-4 x 2 miles @ 85-90% max HR; total mileage = 10)

Elliptical trainer 1 hour (HR @ 70-75% max)

This will give me a weekly mileage of 38-40 on 3 runs (which is reasonably high, but much lower than my previous weekly mileage of 65-70 on 6 runs) and 1 hour of cross-training. Also, each week I'm going to try to change the day on which I do each session, which will hopefully help me to stay fresh and motivated.

If I can stay with it, I'll be fascinated to see how my marathon time compares with the higher mileage programme I used for FLM 07.

If anyone has got any comments, please feel free to let me know them.

ITFAC


Posted: 04/06/2007 at 15:17

ITFAC sounds like you've done some careful thinking about this...the idea of mixing things up certainly works for me. Initial thughts about the plan is that its a good one...

Catherine RW - enjoy the responses!
Posted: 04/06/2007 at 17:32

It's Time For A Change: Your plan is not too dissimilar to what I used to successfully crack 3 hours for the marathon for the last two years on the basis of three runs a week and cross training. (Previously my best was 03:04) The key for me is making the cross training sessions harsh in their intensity -
quite often the runs, although hard in themselves, do not seem as difficult as the gym sessions.

The running side of things looks sound - personally I'm a big fan of doing one of my 3 runs at marathon pace rather than making it an interval session, but everyone has their own preferences. I also liked to keep my sessions on roughly the same day from week to week, as they had been devised to allow a gap of 1 day between each run and fitted in with other things.

The cross training side of things does concern me a little. From previous experience 1 1 hour session on an elliptical trainer at 70-75% intensity does not equate to the 2-3 runs it is replacing. I would suggest at minimum increasing this session incrementally by 5-10 minutes a week building to around 1 1/2 - 2 hours (effectively simulating a long run) and adding at least one more session a week of a minimum of one hour.

It interests me that you say the mind rebels against those sessions it remembers as tough. For me, like you, the elliptical trainer sessions have been boring and also extremely tough. For instance when I have put in sessions of over 2 hours on the trainer, mentally (And not far off physically at the time) they have been harder than running a marathon (I am not joking here). I though have turned this into a positive in that when it comes to running or racing long distances it seems an awful lot easier running than when I was on the trainer. I see all my gym sessions now as mental tougheners as well as good for the body.

My training for the last couple of years has been based on 3 quality runs a week backed up with CV sessions at the gym. In 2006 FLM I managed a 02:57 time (and in September a 01:19 half marathon based on similar principals) with a pretty strict regime broadly as following:
Monday: GYM: 1hr 20 mins, Elliptical trainer, quite often a spinning session.
Tuesday: Run - 8-10 miles nearly all at my planned marathon pace or slightly quicker.
Wednesday: 1hr40 mins on the elliptical trainer. (Heart rate comparable to that when running on a long run).
Thursday: 08-10 miles, (usually with half the miles at half marathon pace)
Friday: 1hr on the elliptical trainer easy (Or the cheat fourth run of the week - just an easy 5 miles if I couldn't get to the gym).
Saturday: Rest or the long run (Building from 11 to 24 miles - with over 5 runs in pre marathon build up over 20 miles)
Sunday: Rest or run (Depending on Saturday)

For 2007 I was aiming for a similar strategy but a spell of injuries meant I had to revise my plans. I didn't run at all in November or February and focused entirely on CV work - the long sessions in the gym on the stepper and elliptical trainer were essential in being able to keep my fitness levels high - maybe even higher than when I was running.
Work commitments and a desperate bid to get running fit in time for London meant that in March and April this year the 3 run a week thing went a bit out of the window (Nearer 5 runs week and 1 trip to the gym), but when I was at home - I found it quite comfortable to do a gym session Monday and Wednesday (Up to 2 hours), 08-10 miles Tuesday and Thursday (at marathon pace), rest Friday, a 50-80 mile bike ride Saturday followed by a long run on the Sunday.

Good luck with your training!


Posted: 05/06/2007 at 12:34

Go-KL

Many thanks for the information.

At last, I've found someone who has broken 3 hours for a marathon on 3 runs a week! That in itself is a fantastic achievement. But arguably the more impressive achievement is your ability to train on an elliptical trainer (ET) for such long periods of time -- staggering!!! Your schedule makes my cross-training session look very anaemic!!

But it's food for thought. I'm going to see if I can add a second session on the ET, but whether I can stretch it out to at least 1.5 hrs is questionable; I'm not sure I have your mental toughness. But I'll see how it goes (I might suprise myself).

A few questions:
1. I'm intrigued by your spinning session on the ET -- what sort of %HR were you achieving during your fast bursts and how long did these bursts last?

2. For how long did you maintain this programme? Did you enjoy it?

Thanks again!

ITFAC
Posted: 05/06/2007 at 13:23

I've done 4 or 5 London marathons under 2hrs 40m on 3 runs a week, sometimes less. Usually included a long Sunday club run. The solo efforts were always intense. At the time I was cycling 150mpw to work. I think this really helped and couldn't get by on so little training now I no longer 'cross train'.
Posted: 06/06/2007 at 15:00

Treadmill

RESPECT!!!

As you say, the cycling mileage must have significantly boosted your endurance and, like GO-KL's and MTriton's examples, shows the benefit of cross-training.

Mmmm, how much time would I have to spend on an elliptical trainer each week to achieve 150 cycling miles.....

ITFAC
Posted: 06/06/2007 at 15:17

Have you checked out this site?

http://www.furman.edu/first/

I'm used it for FLM this year but a silly mistake with new trainers set me back. I have faith though and will be back on it for a sub3 (touch wood) at Berlin.

Happy training
Alex
Posted: 08/06/2007 at 00:31

Hi Alex 73

Yes, I've looked at the Furman schedules. I'm not sure they're for me -- I would prefer more variety rather than having to run tempo/intervals/long run each week. For me, the ability to vary sessions each week (e.g. hills instead of intervals, tempo intervals instead of continuous tempo run) will mean that I'm more likely to stick with such a high intensity schedule.

In fact, I've decided that flexibility is going to be the key ingredient of my training. So, for example, I had planned to do an interval session today, but I actually really fancy a hilly/fartlek run. So that's what I'm going to do instead i.e. I'm going run the session I really feel like running rather than the session I think I must run. I believe that this strategy will have two benefits: 1. Hopefully, I'm going to enjoy my running a lot more and 2. I think the risk of over-training/lack of motivation will be much less. It will be interesting to see what effect this approach will have on my race times.

I know that this approach flies in the face of most training schedules, which are very precriptive, but I feel that they have the potential to squeeze the fun out of running. I've run 5 marathons and for the last two I've found it much harder to motivate myself. So, I think...it's time for a change.

All the best

ITFAC



Posted: 08/06/2007 at 10:03

I have done FLM twice (not at 3hrs tho!) the first time i trained 'conventionally' but to be honest the first time there were lots of junk mileage..odd little 3/4/5/6 milers that weren't really worth anything apart from tired legs.

I followed the 3 day week prog for FLM 2006, i was doing 24 hr shift work and it suited me. I cut 1hr 15 mins off my previous time. I also teach classes so that enables me to fit in my cross training in between wout overtraining.

When i was following another plan that had me running 5-6 days a week, sometimes 13 days without a break i was only a month into it and was having leg probs so switched to the 3 day training.

seemed to work for me...good luck x

Posted: 28/11/2007 at 13:16