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HADD Training Method

Posted: Yesterday at 05:14

Wow, 51 degrees today and calm. Shorts and T shirt weather and got 12.5M in. First 7 easy...8th upped pace a bit, then fast 9 - 12 (6:45 pace and HR in the 80-83% range). Felt good to kick off some rust. I seem to go through this cycle where after a marathon I feel like racing every run the first wk or two back...then I shift to my body only wanting slower, easy runs. Today was good to see my body accept some faster stuff again. And I am way ahead of my recovery compared to the spring marathon. Direct evidence on just how much you can trash your body in harsh race conditions. Cold weather marathons = good (for me!).

My 7 yr old decided to run w/me when I got home. Tacked on another .8 miles at 11:43 m/m pace...she was chatting and bouncing along in her own little happy cloud.

HADD Training Method

Posted: 21/11/2014 at 22:40

Brian, damn man, that is the worst hammy injury I've seen. My Dad slipped while bowling once and his was nasty, but you take the cake. Gutted for you. I don't understand these cruel twists of fate. Here's hoping it's less severe than it looks. Let us know how you progress.

Speaking of bad breaks, good to see you back in action finally Tek! You've been dealing w/that for a while now so glad you are out there running again.

Andi, for striders, I just try to find some telephone poles. In the US, they are spaced about 50 meters apart. So sprinting for 2 of them will give you your ~ 100M strider distance. To do these, be sure you've warmed up well for a mile or 2, then start by gradually building up to nearly full speed and then once you've gotten there just "float" at that top end speed for the rest of the distance. You don't have to run as fast as possible, but fast nonetheless (not sure how to describe this effort). These will probably feel awkward and uncomfortable at first, but soon that will change. Focus on very fast cadence and good form above all else. Don't overstride...just fast, happy steps. If done right, you'll be surprised at how fast your cadence will be (if you have a garmin that can measure cadence with foot pod it can give you some more cool data that you crave!). Your HR should quickly climb to about 78-83% by the end of one of these (and depending your fitness, can go even higher which probably isn't optimal). After each one, just slowly jog until your HR is back down to 70% or lower...once you get there off you go again. Rinse and repeat. Maybe shoot do to 4-5 at the beginning. Then increase from there. I find 7-10 is a good number once you are used to them.

So far this week I've done 10M, 7.5 w/ 7 striders, 7.5, and 9.25 today. All easy efforts and legs feeling pretty good. Will shoot for 12-14 Sunday to cap off my first proper mileage week in a while.


HADD Training Method

Posted: 19/11/2014 at 22:32

DD, nice work in the 10 mile race! Not a bad effort at all coming off 2 consecutive marathons. I'd say you are in a good place to start rebuilding the base for the fast stuff next spring.

Andi, I do deliberately stack rest days before and after the long run. But not just to cater to the LR per say; I find it hard to recover from (and be fresh for) the subLT sessions. I really need that Monday off to absorb the whole week, but Saturday is really important too because you've just run 4 consecutive days w/2 subLT sessions in that span. No sure how else I could structure it. Maybe to take rest day Thrus/Monday? Also, with the HADD training it is hard to get striders built in, which I think have helped me a lot w/my economy/speed. I guess I'd have to throw them in on Tues or Wed, but that is right after or right before a subLT. Not a lot of flexibility.

Brian, how goes it? Still running?? Hope so!

This week I did 10M yesterday (felt good) and did 7.6 today w/7 striders. It's been windy and cold here (yesterday I ran at 9 pm...25F w/18 mph wind)...winter has arrived.

HADD Training Method

Posted: 17/11/2014 at 15:43

Hey Fishy,glad you got to read the background on the approach. It's a compelling read the first time and the logic of it convinced me to try it. And it has certainly worked. I typically run 50-65 miles/week when I'm fully into the base phase training (meaning when I am doing the 2 MP (subLT) sessions and LR per week). My week usually goes 5 days running, 2 days off (e.g. Monday off; Tuesday 13 miles (10 at 80%); Wed. 8-10 easy; Thurs 7-8 easy; Friday 13 w/10 at 80%; Sat off; Sunday 16-22 miles). If I'm not in marathon training, I usually keep the LR to 13-15 miles. Getting to the starting line would simply have all days easy. Shoot for medium long runs Tuesday/Friday, LR Sunday and shorter the remaining days and just build the mileage from there to eventually get to your goal mileage per week. I wouldn't add in the fast stuff until you can go at least 10-13 miles at steady HR (70%) w/no loss of pace. When you get there and the weekly mileage feels good (all done at easy efforts) you can add in the 80% sessions. At least that's the way I've done it but perhaps others can chime in?

Last week was a good one. Only ran 4 days but got striders in Tues, then 11M Friday, 5 sat, and 12 yesterday (and this run felt effortless and HR stayed low and steady...finished w/a full tank of gas). Hopefully that will carry over. Beginning wk5 post marathon.

Also, welcome to all the new folks!

Sub 3h15

Posted: 14/11/2014 at 02:17

Hi Fishy, I have looked over the P&D plan and actually follow it's LR schedule (for the 55-70 plan) when filling out my build ups. I think the P&D recovery stuff is actually listed as harder than I would do (don't have the book in front of me, but I think they tend to classify recovery as maybe starting at 75% of maxHR...but will double check for sure). So for me that would be too close to my 80-82% maxHR marathon effort. I tend to take the easy stuff at 70% or event down to 65%. But the pace at low effort differs based on how long you have done that type of training. We see a fair number of people come on to the thread w/out much of a base. For them, to run 70% has them nearly walking. So in that case you take your current 5K fitness and simply add 3 minutes to it. Eventually your HR at that pace will come down to the right zone and you can go from there. So in short, never really do anything slower than 3 minutes off 5K pace. In my last build, my 5K pace was ~6:20 (yes, HADDing doesn't translate into speed for shorter distances...you finish those races knowing you could keep going...can't find the truly fast gear). Anyway, my 70% pace was around 8:20-8:30ish if that helps.

Also, +1 to SJ's comments on the Cliftons. It's like training in racing flats but getting Nimbus-like (I daresay much better in fact) cushioning. I transitioned to these in late July and ran my marathon in them. Now I do most of my running in them and throw in the Nimbus for recovery days.

TFL woes

Posted: 13/11/2014 at 16:03

Hi Cal,

I had TFL pain during a recent marathon build. Never knew I even had a TFL before that! But, my Fizz team pinpointed that muscle as the problem but didn't have great ideas for how to fix it. Check out these 2 videos. The first shows how using a trigger point ball can help tremendously (and has an important stretch to go with it). The ball can literally melt the tightness/pain away before you set out to run. Also, do the stretch which hits the sneaky bast*rd (you'll get that reference in the second link below which I think describes the stretch better than the first link). Good luck!




Sub 3h15

Posted: 12/11/2014 at 00:32

OO, yes, used up my allotment of thread space one post. So a typical week for 5/10K training might look something like this:

Monday: rest or easy

Tuesday: intervals

Wed: easy

Thurs: easy

Friday: Tempo

Sat: rest

Sunday: LR

Tweak away!

BTW, what does a typical tempo run look like? How about some standard interval sessions?

Fishy, saw your post on the other thread. I think it would be challenging to do HR training w/out the HR monitor. We'll see what the others think. Nice Hadding BTW.

Leslie, seems you are back into your groove again.

SJ, glad to hear you are running again. Progress is progress! Pretty soon you'll get to try those Cliftons...

8 miles tonight w/8 striders. On the first one my legs/hips didn't want to respond, but by the 3rd the rust had come off. Felt nice to get the legs moving fast.

Sub 3h15

Posted: 11/11/2014 at 16:49

Wow, sorry for the double post. Not sure how I managed that...

Sub 3h15

Posted: 11/11/2014 at 16:45

sorry, here are two good links for anyone interested:



I think in my case this training has been a good fit as I was starting from scratch back in 2011. Others may have that aerobic engine built already and won't need a base training like this. FWIW, it's the subLT stuff that really get's the engine dialed in.

Sub 3h15

Posted: 11/11/2014 at 16:42

Hi Folks! Sorry to have been offline for so long. Life has been crazy since the marathon. I know I've missed many events, but wanted to say congrats to MsE and Lorenzo for the great marathon performances a few weeks back. Also cracking stuff OO (from you and your daughter). PMJ nice 10 miler too!. I'm sure I'm forgetting others but great stuff from the threadsters!

Just cracked the 2K mark over the weekend (2008 on the year). Maybe will see 2300 by year's end. I have done a bit too much fast running in my reverse taper but managed to stay in one piece despite a PF flare up a week ago (all better now!).

Interesting discussion going on about training (how much time on your feet, at what effort, allowing for proper recovery, etc). Someone mentioned how running miles too slow would hurt their times. Below I paste a link to the HADD thread's first post (HR based training forum). In it are some interesting links to follow. They are lengthy reads, but address some of these issues. For my own training, post marathon (or starting from a place far removed from race fitness) I begin with all easy mileage. I try to shoot for 40-60 miles per week (in 4-6 runs), but all the miles are done at or less than 70% MaxHr. For those that haven't trained like this those slower effort runs feel awful at first (you are engaging all the slow twitch fibers you normally never use!). But eventually you get them trained and your pace at the effort becomes faster. Anyway, my benchmark before adding any speed work is that I can run for 10-12 miles w/HR and pace not rising. When I hit this stage, I can then introduced 2 subLT runs per week at 80% of MaxHR (usually 90 minutes w/70 at 80 and a w/u and c/d around that...you can start the 70 minutes at 15 min x2 w/jog in between and work up to it). You also get a LR on the weekend. Eventually you push these subLTs efforts up so you can do those sessions comfortably at 85% maxHR. At this point, HADD would have said you are ready to do more specific training (speed stuff for shorter than marathon distance or whatever you would do for marathon specific training, which, in my case, is simply what I've described as I'm FT). The point of this particular approach is to become an aerobic monster before starting the race season so you can handle any and all to follow. I bring it up as I'm planning to do this over the winter and then transition into training for 5/10k and half marathon training for this summer/fall. But the base training plan itself is good for keeping injuries at bay as you are forced to really take it easy on non-quality days so you are fresh for the quality. Of course I am an N = 1 for all this but if my last marathon is any indication, it had me fit at the start line.

I'm going to need help from you guys finding or tailoring a training plan to get some PBs at 5/10K (I'm completely clueless and I haven't stumbled upon anything that jumps out yet on the internet...too much noise out there)!

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